Who Is Allan Kardec?

Dan Assisi: 00:00:13

Hello everyone and welcome to episode 36 of Spiritist Conversations, a show where we sit down with friends to talk about the world through a Spiritist lens in an informal unplugged and unscripted way. I am Dan Assisi and I am very excited to be joined by my friends Suzana Simoes and Flavio Zanetti here today. How are you guys doing?

Suzana Simoes: 00:00:40

Hey guys. Nice to see you again. Hello, everybody. Hello.

Flavio Zanetti: 00:00:46

Hello, Dan. Sue. It's great to be here. Great to see you guys

Suzana Simoes: 00:00:50

DId you say 36, Dan?

Dan Assisi: 00:00:53

Episode 36. Yeah. Wow. Yes. This is also year six. This is the sixth year that we're doing this. So, um, I still have very fond memories --I think it was in Georgia --you guys don't remember this, but I accosted you when I showed up with a microphone and saif, what if we just record this conversation? So, lovely journey. Excited to be here with you and kickstart this new year.

Suzana Simoes: 00:01:19

Yeah, we, our relationship is lasting

Dan Assisi: 00:01:22

So far, so far.... I am also very excited that all of us got the memo today somehow and dressed in black. So, you know, this is just kind of how we roll these days. We seem to be in the same wavelength even though we're in different parts of the country. So, excited to jump in with you guys. Let's do this.

Suzana Simoes: 00:01:46

Who do we have with us today?

Dan Assisi: 00:01:48

Ah, and our special guest for today's episode is our friend Charles Kempf. And he is a researcher, a speaker, and just a friend of Spiritist Conversations. He's joining us directly from France. Welcome back, Charles. Thanks for being on the program

Charles Kempf: 00:02:03

again. Thanks for having me. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, Susanna. Thank you, Flavio. Very happy to be here again with you talking about card, which is a subject I appreciate particularly, huh? So, okay. Let's try to transmit some of the details of, who he really is. Who was really card and why is he after more than, one and a half centuries still so known and more and more known by the way everywhere in on this planet right now.

Dan Assisi: 00:02:41

Well said Charles. Very well said. I think it's a great introduction. But before we begin, I just wanna remind folks that Spiritist Conversations is broadcast on multiple channels on the interwebs. So if you want to join our conversation, we would love for you to find your way into our official ch Spiritist conversation channels, because the comments you may be putting on different channels don't always make their way back to us. So if you do want to be heard, if you do want to participate, make sure that you come in and just say hello on the chat, on YouTube, on Facebook, or whatever it is that you are. Cuz we are really excited to, to have you here with us. Just a, a friendly housekeeping there, but, okay. So who is this Alon card guy? Guy who, who's this guy? Everybody's gonna stay quiet today.

Suzana Simoes: 00:03:36

It's just hard to know where we start, but I, but I would, yes. He's, let me just say that he is the coif fire, the man who put together what we call today, the spirituals philosophy. How about that for an opening.

Dan Assisi: 00:03:55

That is wonderful. That is wonderful. And thanks for bringing, bringing your dog as well. So

Suzana Simoes: 00:04:01

we love your dog. He's always around. I he's

Dan Assisi: 00:04:04

part, he's part of spiritualist conversation. So you wouldn't be a spiritualist conversations Adam.

Suzana Simoes: 00:04:08

I know, I know,

Flavio Zanetti: 00:04:10

but I'd like to say that the, even though we say card really compiled Spiritism, right? He didn't really invent Spiritism. Correct. That was not something that he invented per se. So we cannot say he was the inventor. But rather he was the one that compiled everything he studied and put together in order for us to today consume this than we call Spiritism.

Dan Assisi: 00:04:41

And that in itself, it's a wonderful perspective, right? Flavia, cuz I think that's something that sets Spiritism a little bit apart from different ways of looking at life generally. You have somebody like, whether it's a philosopher or a religious person who receives some sort of like special knowledge or revelation and that person then becomes like a prophet, becomes a starter of something. But with card it, it didn't exactly happen that way. He didn't really set aside, an intention to say, I'm gonna start something new. He was just really looking into things. And as a matter of fact, Alan Keck is not really even his real name. So maybe this is, we kind of punt this to Charles A. Little bit and say, Charles as our resident, French slash kak expert, what, can you tell us a little bit about Kak to start that conversation?

Charles Kempf: 00:05:36

Yeah, so let's go. He, his true name was He was born in Leon in 1804 Uhhuh. And he grew up, was educated in Switzerland by in pastor, educational institute in Ido in Switzerland. And then he had a normal career, I would say educator. Huh He had an institution at that time giving for, for young children and also older children. And He only got aware or started some investigation about spirit spiritualist or Spiritist phenomenon when he was 50 years old. Huh? So it was in 1855 that he started to investigate, huh? And the first book, huh? The spirits book was published the 18th of April 1857, which means something like 165 years ago. A little bit more now, huh? And he dedicated the rest and the rest of his life and his his dis carnation which was 31st of March, 1869. So he dedicated all that time in investigating, going more in depth, writing other books giving lecture, visiting centers and so on. Alan Keck was only, let's say last, 11 or 12 years of his life. The first 50 years he was how to say, n normal life in the area of education in Paris at least. And until 1840. And then in the 1850, he had a period where it was he had quite some difficulties also materially. He got the necessity to sustain his family. And he found then this new way as his mission started only at the final phase of his life. So as you clearly he, he, he was not always put himself made very clear that the ideas in the Spirits book, for instance are the ideas of the spiritual we're communicating. He just made the questions okay. And the answers he transcribed in the spirits book are the answers which were given by the spirits. So this means that the spirit's body of knowledge came from the spiritual world and were absolutely not his personal ideas. And even on some topics like for instance, reincarnation. He had some, he needed some time to be convinced himself. The idea, the idea came very clearly from the spiritual world, and then he ended up accepting it. Why? Because it was presented in a rational, explained, logical way. Not just a statement. You must be, believe or not. No. With all the arguments behind it in order to Oh yes. This really makes sense. And accepting it then through the understanding of of the arguments.

Dan Assisi: 00:09:20

And that's a great point you bring Charles, because I also think that's the reason why the spirits also said, nah, nah, nah, you don't get to put your name on this. Right. This is not don't use your, your regular name because this is not your ideas. This is the spirit's idea. And therefore we want you to use a name from a previous incarnation that you had so that it's not confused with whom you are today cuz they're doing the heavy lifting. He did have the wonderful chance of organizing that, those responses in an easy to understand format. But I think right from the beginning we get this really clear message that is the spirit's teachings, right? The first work is the spirit's book. It's not card's book, it's not reveal's book, it's the spirit's book. So it's a really different way and approach of bringing this new body of knowledge forward, right? Saying the owner of this thing, it's not here in the physical plane. I think that's very different, right? Very unusual.

Suzana Simoes: 00:10:20

Exactly. I have a a point in our curiosity that I want to bring and actually see what Charles has to say and for all of you as well when it comes to the names. We mentioned here that Alan Kak was a name that he used in a previous incarnation. And Charles start by saying his name was Denizard Hypolite Leon Rivail, but we also find Hypolite Denizard Rivaill written in different places. We can be a little confusing. For someone who does not know, I mean, not only two names, but seems like three names. What's the story behind that?

Charles Kempf: 00:11:05

Yes, it's confusing. And the second confusion on top of this is that Poli, there are five or six different ways spell it. So the ZA is the one which is shown in his birth register certificate. And that should be the official one. Now we have to understand that it was in 1804. Huh? You remember that? French Revolution came a little bit after the US Revolution. It was 1789. So it was only 15 years later. Huh. And at that time so before it was The registers were hold by the church. And after the revolution, of course, they had to be all the infrastructure necessary with the staff also to make the revolution. And that is explaining why at that time the, the training of those people and so on was maybe not yet so optimal. And that it was, let's say, uh, uh, not so formal. And, uh, when we talk about which is the, the, the most known one, this is by the way, the one that. Uh, himself was using when he was writing or signing a letter or putting his name when he was married, for instance, and so on. He always put in, in this sec se sequence. So it's not only his case that happened at, for instance, uh, we have other cases. Alexander Dulan, his name was not Alexander, it was a different name, but he changed and put the name Alexander, which sometimes gave a little bit confusion because you need to have judgment of a judge. Mm-hmm. Saying no, it is the same person, you know, just to certify the identity. But that was simply how to say, uh, the status at that time. Today, nowadays it's a little bit more rigorous and more complicated, but at that time it was a little bit more free. And then Alan Keck, of course, uh, rev was quite known in France in the education he put several contribution for the education system. Not only in France, but also in Belgium or countries. He developed a lot of Pelo methods. So he had some, he was known as an educator and if he would've signed the spirits book with, uh, Revis, one could have said, eh, he is using the fact he's known in an area in order to promote something else. So that's one reason why he changed the name. He used a pseudonym in fact, but uh, he never was hiding himself. Everybody was knew that, uh, Alan Keck and Levi was the same person. And the certain reason was also at the beginning, you know, when he published the Spirits book, uh, he still was working, uh, had to do some jobs in order to sustain his family. And two of these jobs were in, uh, a Catholic, uh, uh, publishing company, Pego, which was, uh, from Leon and in Paris. And the second one he was working for, uh, a newspaper, which was Luve, which was also Catholic. So at the end, they knew it and they somehow, he lost his jobs, of course. Mm-hmm. Because he published the Spirit book. But at least it gave him some buffer, uh, a little year, uh, to find some other ways, uh, to survive in his life. So that, that is probably also the second reason why he adopted his student.

Dan Assisi: 00:14:59

Interesting. Yeah, and that's an interesting thing, right? Because nowadays a lot of criticism in general in the world is, oh, somebody's trying to make money off of spirituality, right? So how is that guy cashing in on that? But. For him, it was quite the opposite. Right? Cuz he actually put a lot of whatever money he had, especially at the end of the life into this thing. So he w it wasn't really a great financial proposition. Right. He ended up spending quite a bit of his money into, into this thing. Is that right, Charles?

Charles Kempf: 00:15:27

Correct, yes. He, he was pragmatic, huh? Because, uh, you can give for free what you receive for free, but publishing a book is not for free publishing the Spiritist magazine is not for free, so you have to find a way to, to finance it. And what we knew is, uh, for instance, sorry, he bought, uh, property which was, uh, villas in Paris. Huh. Which today is worth only one flood. There is worth a million Euro dollar or whatsoever. And there's something like 50 floods in that area. So you, you, you can have an idea of the value of what he had at that time, but that enabled him. Uh, to make some, uh, loans. So he, he was, uh, getting monnet something like, uh, 25,000 Frans, uh, on his own risk, huh? Giving his property as a guarantee for the loan in order to, to finance. Uh, because at the beginning, only the Spirits book and the Spirits magazine did not bring the financial equilibrium. And that was, uh, always a pro, uh, uh, concern of him in order to make the thing, uh, giving the sustainability to it, huh uh, but, uh, he was clearly, as you told, uh, Dan, putting Monet from his own pocket, uh, into the, the Spiritism even, uh, af when the thing got a li a little bit better equilibrium. Financially speaking, I think

Flavio Zanetti: 00:16:55

it's important to mention that publishing a book today while difficult right, it's not, not as costly as he was on Keck, was publishing right in back in 1857. So the, the amount of money and, and of course the work required to publish back then was certain multiple, right? Yes. And if we compare to today, right? So way more difficult back

Charles Kempf: 00:17:16

then than it is today. Yeah, it was quite costly. Yeah. The typography was letter by letter, line by line, page by page. And then, uh, 30, 18 or 36 pages, uh, into a big frame and printing France versa. And then, uh, Uh, folding and cutting. Uh, so, and, and you had to do thousand or 2000 or 3000 at once. So it was, it's, it's a little bit like, uh, publishing before the, today we have on demand, uh, you can, uh, publish one at a good price. Huh. But at that time, uh, publishing a book, it was, uh, thousands and thousands of, uh, French ranks, huh. Uh, equivalent today to, to, to Euro. It's a little bit what we knew. I don't remember, I don't know if you remember the first books edited by the International Disabilities Council, for instance. Huh Uh, it was a huge investment, huh. Today it's of course much, much easier. But at that, uh, when you go only 20 years ago, it was much more difficult. So when you go 160 years ago, it's uh, Even more critical though. Absolutely.

Dan Assisi: 00:18:24

Yeah. And one of the things I think it's really interesting is cuz we're all a little bit card deck today, right? In Spiritism, cuz we, we all end up putting our own resources into these things, right? When nobody here gets paid. Um, and Spiritist conversations, as you can see, is a top-notch professional production, you know, full of, uh, really, really skilled professionals that really, um, do this for a living. Maybe not. Uh, but we are happy to, to freely give that which we've freely received. Um, uh, Charles, so one of the things, and, and for the group here too, one of the things that I think most interesting about Keck, it's actually not Keck itself, but how Keck became Keck, or why Keck became Keck. I mean, how does, how does become Keck, right? So how did, how did he get exposed to the whole spiritual piece and decided that he was going to. You know, actually study this, cuz I think that in the beginning he was not really excited about, uh, all this new phenomena taking place.

Charles Kempf: 00:19:24

Yes. So, so we, we are doing quite some, uh, researchers right now into the mes Mesmer. Mesmerism, mesmerism mes.

Dan Assisi: 00:19:33

Yeah.

Charles Kempf: 00:19:34

And, and amongst this, uh, movement of, uh, Mesmerists, there were two trends. One of this trend was spiritualists. So these people were already around 18, 20, 18, 30, 18, uh, uh, 40. Totally aware that, uh, some person in Theistic state could get some information and even talk with, uh, spirits cells of people, which were dis discriminated. So, uh, clearly there were some clear signs and experiments, uh, in that way. Uh, one, two, or three decades before. Huh. And then of course we know that 1848 was ville in the us, uh, the turning table and so on. Mm-hmm. Was, uh, studying a little bit. And, and he was, when he had some questions, for instance, about health, the health system was not what it was today. Yeah. So when you had a health problem, you, you went of course to a doctor, but also to some novelist, uh, uh, person in order to give some, to receive some hints about what to do to, to recover your health. So he, we have some evidences that he was also sometimes asking help from, uh, some novelist, uh, which was, uh, called Mar. And that was in 1840. So, uh, I think since when he arrived in Paris around 18 22, 18 23, uh, he was, Uh, interested in this, uh, area, but he did not, uh, uh, how to say, engage himself personally in more efforts in it because his task at that moment was, uh, pedagogy was education, educational system. Uh, and, uh, when then turning table came, uh, at, uh, in France around very beginning, 18 50, 18 49, uh, it, it, it got really, uh, developed. But again, he was not, uh, involved in it before, uh, 1854 when he heard about, and 1855 when he, for the first time went to see, uh, the house of, uh, c of, uh, Uhhuh, where he, for the first time could see a table moving and answering to some questions and so on. And since he was, uh, Uh, from the past method, not trained to observe the phenomenon of nature and so on, he saw immediately that it was authentic. That there was no trick, no lever, no, uh, rope or elastic or whatsoever. And, uh, he also analyzed immediately that some of the answer which were received are totally out of the capacities and of the knowledge of the person which were present. So that was then the trigger. Who made him change? Uh, it was not card becoming card, it was rev becoming card. Yeah. But

Flavio Zanetti: 00:22:43

to mention Charles, that the turning tables was a phenomenon back then in France or all over the world, for that matter. Yes, yes. Together to watch these tables turning in everywhere. Right. They were, they were, you know, had some newspapers.

Dan Assisi: 00:22:58

No Netflix at the time, right? No hbo, right? No movies,

Flavio Zanetti: 00:23:04

no social

Charles Kempf: 00:23:04

media. Like this is no radios, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and so it was, uh, like, sorry,

Suzana Simoes: 00:23:15

I said, who needs all that when the tables are flying around?

Dan Assisi: 00:23:19

I know, I know. We, we gotta talk about this thing, like this sting table phenomena, right? Because the, the, the, the salons were like in vogue at that time, right? So, mm-hmm. So, and, and if, if you have never been, um, uh, if you had never been connected to the history of the turning tables, people would sit around in a room and sometimes they would put their hands on the table and the tables would start to move on their own. And of course there were many calls of like, this is fake and so forth. But in other, in other, uh, places, it was not. And so like the whole question of whether this is really happening or not was one that was

Charles Kempf: 00:23:56

bubbling at the time. Exactly, yes. But, but he did not the particularity of kak, he did not stay to the phenomenon itself. He, he did not really was making it as a joke or whatever. He immediately saw, okay, it's moving. There is no doubt about that. Uh, he saw it from his own eyes, uh, repeatedly, uh, several times. But then he went more to the, okay now, so what the tables are moving? What is moving the table? Who is moving the table? Who is giving the intelligence answers that are coming through the table? And this is really, uh, he went immediately to this next step. Huh? The looking for the cause and also looking for all the philosophical, ethical, and so on, consequences about it. And that is basically what we have in the Spirits book. So it, it's really the first book who came. In a, not just describing fact the table moved, uh, each time or white time or, uh, it was not just the facts. You know, he, he went much, much further, uh, from the, already in the first book. And, and that is why today this book is still one of the most sold. Huh? The, the Spirits book or the medium's book Karthik wrote the medium's book is still, today's the best book about mediumship. Huh? Even, even though it is more than 160 years old. And that is really, uh, when he saw the table, huh? It then came the connection because he came on earth reincarnating already with his mission, but then, uh, when the mission started, uh, this connection was made. He got aware and, and he decided to fully dedicate himself quite quickly, uh, to investigate deeper, uh, this phenomenon and all the consequences of it. And that is why Kak is really. Uh, made these, uh, five books plus the split magazine, plus the smallest booklet. Mm-hmm. Uh, in a really comprehensive way that has, okay, Sheik Aer made more quantity of books and so on. But how to say everything was already, uh, bound and, uh, still today recognized. Uh, there is no one today who came and said, look, this, and that is not consistent here. There is an contradiction and inconsistency, uh, into what Kak said, and, and, and we know how much science has evolved in the meantime. But science did never demonstrate that any fundamental point that were came through the spirits, uh, is wrong. Huh? The, the spirit, the spirit body of knowledge or in paradigm is still, uh, solid today. Nothing has been demonstrating has been, uh, false in it, and that is really remarkable.

Dan Assisi: 00:26:49

Yeah, it really is. And I wanna double click on what you said there, Charles, cuz I think it's incredible, right? So what we have is we have this phenomena taking place in Paris. Tables are moving, people are beginning to ask questions of table or the tables right on the objects that are moving. And the tables begin to answer these questions by way of like, go to the left. If it's a yes, go to the right if it's a no and later they get a little bit fancier and say, knock once for a, knock twice for B, which probably took a very long time to get an answer right? But obviously the point is, and this is where I like one of, uh, card's, uh, phrases that really stuck with me when I first 30 spiritism, is for every effect there is a cause and every intelligent effect. Requires an intelligent cause. So if the answers to these questions that are being asked of a table are intelligent, if the, the table the table quote, I'm doing air quotes, right, air quotes here. If the table is able to answer intelligent questions. And we know that a table does not have a brain, so clearly somebody is behind this. So what does that mean? And when we begin to realize that, oh, hold on a second. There are the consciousness of the departed, so to speak, which we call spirits, are actually answering these questions. I think that's the genius of Kardex. So, so tell, tell us about the spirit world. What does, what does it mean to, to be discarnate or without a body? Right? And from there we have this, some packing of these wonderful books that you are talking about, these five books we call the codification that changed everything, right? And that's amazing cuz that's a different way of thinking instead of just enjoying. Sorry, Sirius tried to talk to me here on my phone, all of a sudden. Could hear you could if, could hear her. Um, but the, the interesting thing is why everybody was looking for a, a little bit of, of fun and just kind of trying to figure out what was happening. He was diving a little bit deeper and tried to understand the consequences of, of these communication piece.

Suzana Simoes: 00:28:45

Let me get, um, kind of where you stop there, Dan and just kind of check with, uh, Charles, I mean some, some of the, the details of this beginning, um, like Dan was talking about that he went and he start observing and he start to investigate. And I think I read somewhere that at some point he was interested but even, you know, because he was such a busy man and he had other things, he was, um, think, you know, Not yet a hundred percent into it until he received 15 notebooks of communications and he was asked to organize those, uh, 50 notebooks. Is this something that we have more information about? Is this something that is, you know, it's a, it, it just seemed to me the time that I read that was actually relevant and change a little bit of the nature of the meetings at the time, from just places where people would go for, for fun to like really giving the meetings a different purpose.

Charles Kempf: 00:30:01

Yeah. So this, uh, the source for this 15 notebooks with questions and answers, uh, does not come from himself. Huh? Okay. Yeah. What comes himself is what, uh, has been compiled by Pier Guide Marine, the postwar. Which were published only in 1889. So 20 years after his death, huh? 20 years after it was spent. Hundred years of the French Revolution and so on and so on. Uh, but, uh, what, what, what is Sure, what Kadak is confirming that he was going to several groups because there was some 10 or 20 groups in Paris. And since he really took the thing seriously, the groups where the people, uh, were just looking to the, to the phenomenon more seriously, uh, he took over somehow, naturally the, the, the control of the, of the meetings because he came with the questions already prepared. And he really managed the, the, the agenda of, of, of all the meetings. Of course, some other group, uh, were continuing for curiosity for fun or whatsoever. And those groups, he left, uh, a lead bit aside. But then he was known into these other groups. And then for sure, uh, this person from the groups, they had some notes or what was it, 50 or not, we don't know. They, uh, when they saw that he was compiling and doing, uh, deep investigations, they for sure gave him the, all the materials they gathered, even before he joined in 1955. So, but that it was 50 notebooks as this does not come from I see himself. Mm-hmm. So it's an information that we have to take as he, let's say, more generically, it is possible that, uh, uh, the bio first biograph like our resource. Mm-hmm. He was knowing several person were still alive, that did no cardiac very well when he was alive. And it was maybe some verbal, uh, transmitted information. But we got a lot of documents, uh, recently, yeah. Since 2018, something like two or 3000 documents, but unfortunately we did not go get his notebooks. They are still mm-hmm. Missing a lot of, uh, information. And let's see if, if one day we, we, we get to them. So, but for sure he, he took a natural leadership because of the seriousness, uh, and also all the engagement he brought into these sessions.

Flavio Zanetti: 00:32:33

I want, I wanted to, um, to, uh, bring something, because oftentimes we talk about Kak, and obviously Kak is the compiler of Spiritism as we know, but there were a lot of people behind the scenes also helping him, namely, right. Emil Gabriel, which was his wife. Right. And, uh, not much is talked about her. So, Charles, do you have any, anything that's, um, It's interesting to share with us here. What, for the folks that are either, you know, watching or listening to, listening to us live or afterwards more on, uh, his wife, his great partner. Yes. That really motivated him to continue, right. Uh, for the, uh, spiritist magazine and the books and all those things.

Charles Kempf: 00:33:17

Yes. So really also they came, she incarnated something like eight to nine years before him. So she was a little bit older than him. And, uh, they married in, uh, 1832. So Kadak was, uh, uh, 28 years and she was already 36, uh, years old when they married. But of course it was a feat from the beginning. Huh. We found the first letter he wrote to her. Wow. After the first meeting. So it is an information that is now. Uh, available in French and in Portuguese, and I think also, uh, if not yet, uh, soon in Spanish into a website, uh, which is called, uh, pro, pro Project Ek, huh? From the University, federal University in Brazil of Jewish city of Jewish defora. And, uh, they, it's really very well done. When you go there, you can find this letter, you can see the original, you can see the transcriptions and the translations, hopefully also one day in English. Uh, and, and there, when you read what he writes to her and, and, and the second letter also, we don't have her answer swear, unfortunately, but we have the first letter he sent to her and the second letter he sent to her. And the, the letter also was sent by the mother of card to the, to, to Emily. You see that there was, uh, how to say, Uh, perfect fit connection. The beginning. Yeah. And, and we can see from all the, the, the difficulties they passed, uh, as river and then also Kar sh they were also always extremely bound. So Emily sometimes met putting some pressure on him, but, uh, always behind in order to, to, to help. And she was also fully, uh, sharing, uh, these, uh, studies and uh, uh, giving their opinion. And we can see from the multiple letter we found now between them as Revis, uh, and also later as, because when he was traveling in 1962, for instance, uh, there is where we got all the letters. Huh? And from this weekend, the Jews, huh? All what she was doing when they were together. So,

Dan Assisi: 00:35:38

and, you know, and as a public service announcement, Charles, we should just say for the younger people listening to us, the letters are paper, text, uh, text messages, written on paper that people used to send. They're back in the day. Just wanna level set here for, for a younger crowd.

Charles Kempf: 00:35:54

Yeah. Okay. It's, uh, they says the ancestor of the email, huh? Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And, and, uh, so clearly they had this, uh, uh, very complimentary relationship, huh. And there is a, a discourse, which was done by Gabrielle Dulan, uh, Gabrielle Dolan. Now he was, uh, he, he knew card because he was born in 1857. So I think only one month before was the Spirit book. And, uh, when, uh, so Emily survived card, uh, he died in 1869. She died in 1883. Huh. So, uh, she continued the work and, uh, really, uh, did all what she can in order to pursue, uh, give continuation to the work, uh, OFPI Man card. And, uh, when Gabrielle Dolan is commenting, making this, uh, speech, uh, at the funeral of, uh, Emily, there is really what, what, how you can see an appreciation giving from someone who knew them, who saw them, uh, together during a, a good time.

Suzana Simoes: 00:37:07

It's a great thing that he had such a, uh, an incredible and close partner, especially given the difficulties and the challenges that he faced in his, uh, life. I think that's something that's kind of. Uh, uh, we're talking about, I mean, we did mention money. We, you know, play about the money, but he was accused of many different things, even, you know, making money out of spirituals amongst many other things. So having that person next to him was certainly comforting, giving the, the level of struggles that he encountered doing his work.

Dan Assisi: 00:37:47

Yes, exactly. Great point too. And, and, and Charles, I'm gonna piggyback on Susanna's here because at some point it looks like Reveal, right? Actually has some fame as an educator. He had a couple of books published, I think in, in, in French grammar that was used throughout the country. So his professional life, he was actually, you know, later on, very well established and, and somewhat known. So, uh, it's interesting that he kind of worked backwards, right? He, he, he actually was known in his professional life and at the beginning, not known in the spiritual piece. And then he kind of, Kind of, both of them kind of went forward, but it must have been really hard to have those, those, uh, those comments that are not always nice, right? That I think everybody that goes to some sort of spiritual transformation has to endure, uh, the criticism of

Charles Kempf: 00:38:37

people. So we went in the archive in Paris and, uh, went a little bit more, uh, looking about this financial situation of, uh, Reva. And uh, really what we find out is, uh, they always had, uh, financial difficulties as Reba. It was quite difficult for them. Uh, this big institute, uh, which was working in Paris, had to close because, uh, his mother was, uh, discarnate already as she dis discriminated in 1832. Just after the marriage. The father disappeared when he was three years old in 1807. So, He, he was sustaining also his mother and his uncle. And the uncle was gambling in the casinos here and there, lost a lot of money. And that was, uh, uh, the, he was obliged to sell his institute to another guy in order to pay the debt, uh, and whatsoever. So j just for you to, to see the money he get, he got for buying the Villa Seger was for the, from the heritage of the father and the mother of family. And there they got something like, I don't know, 10 or 20,000 or 30 South France, which was not so much that enabled him to buy this property for 10,000 fronts. All this we found, now we have the papers, we have, uh, uh, we, we found all, all this showing that, and at the end, huh uh, this villa that he bought gave him the, the, the solidity in order to, uh, enable banking. Uh, the, the first step of the qualification from his own pocket. And the reality was this, this, we have no, all the evidences about this.

Dan Assisi: 00:40:27

And I also read Charles, that Villa Siu, who was going to be something that he left afterwards for, for, uh, he wanted to build a community for spirits could who did not have retirement and could, and so that they, they didn't become destitutes or, or homeless basically. Right,

Charles Kempf: 00:40:42

exactly. So, uh, all the belongings of Eck went to Of course, huh? When he died. And all the belonging of family Huh uh, went to the, uh, society for the continuation of the works of, uh, Alan. So all, all what they had because they did not have, uh, children in the order. So they gave everything for the development of the spiritist, even after they had this. So the problem is that, to say at that time it was not so easy. And some distant parent from Emily came and made a trial and got, uh, the money back, which, uh, made the bankruptcy of that, uh, society, uh, at the end already at the end of the 19th, uh, 18th, 19th century. Sorry. Yeah. So we also have the evidences about this now Uhhuh. Fascinating. This, uh, you can find a lot of information in the book, which was published recently, huh? From Carlos. We are currently translating into French. Yeah. And here you find a lot, a lot, a lot of, uh, information, not only about these cases, which happened at after card, but also about who were, uh, this, uh, Mr. Boham, Mr. Carlo, and so on. So, uh, a lot of researchers have been made. Now we know exactly who this person were at at that time, and I think that is,

Dan Assisi: 00:42:15

I think that's, That's wonderful and very in line with Spiritist teachings. Right. At the end of the day, the resources, financial resources, physical resources don't really matter as much, but he did leave us with an incredible legacy, right. Of knowledge that he helped organize. And when I go back a little bit, um, to that, Charles, because we know that, you know, started to do the research and he went to different groups, and I wanna go back to that really quickly because I think he has a lot to do with Spiritism. So Keck then comes up with this message, with his questions, and he's basically going around to different groups, asking these questions and sometimes repeating them in different groups. Mm-hmm. Just to try them out, right? Yes. It's in a very scientifically minded mindset of saying, I'm gonna ask this here in this group. I'm gonna ask this again on that group and see how the answers jive or if they don't jive. And from there I'm gonna start, um, you know, figuring out whether they are really true or not. Can you talk to us a little bit about, about these experiences that he had?

Charles Kempf: 00:43:18

Yeah. So, so he, he wa he saw immediately that, uh, all the speeds which are communicating are not always right. Okay. You can, as in the humanity, since the spirits are just, uh, uh, the, the, the humans after the death, huh, uh, some, uh, even with the best goodwill will say you something which is completely false. Okay. So he, he saw that immediately, uh, in the, that, uh, answers from the spirit were not always consistent between themselves. So there are two criteria he used to overcome his difficulties. The first criteria is to analyze everything with our intelligence common sense. Uh, reasoning what makes sense, what is consistent, what is not consistent, huh? So the analysis of us human that he, he, he was doing at that moment. And the second criteria he made was what he called the universality of the teaching of the spirits. So the more you get spontaneously from different sources, different medium, different countries, even, huh? Second edition of the Speed is book, he got already a lot of feedback from Europe and even Americas and wherever. Huh uh, consolidating than the teachings themselves, huh? Uh, because if you are one group with one medium and you don't have this, uh, universal control, huh? And that was a criteria he applied from the beginning, uh, in order to, to, to, to reach this solidity, this consistency of the teachings.

Flavio Zanetti: 00:44:59

So I, I, I love the way you say this, uh, Charles, because I mean, Keck is, is like a genius, right? In my, in my i, in my, in my understanding, right? Because he was able to get thousands and thousands of messages Yes. To put them together, to compare them, to build on them, and to really select or filter those that really made sense that were talking about the same things from different mediums that do not know each other, right? Yes. However, the point, right, I, I wanna make is even though today people still, right, when we talk about, oh, we should study kak, we should know more about Kak, right? Oh, it's too difficult, it's too complicated. I'm just gonna read something else. I'm just gonna go, go somewhere else. Right? So what's the importance of, for those folks that perhaps may be listening to us that are not spiritists, right? What's the importance for us to start from the beginning? Okay. Maybe talk a little bit about that.

Charles Kempf: 00:45:55

Uh, uh, to be frank with you, uh, flak, uh, uh, I think that, uh, this methodology and this reg rigorous way that card was working, I did not see it a lot of times repeated. Uh, since that time. There were of course some very important, like, is like, uh, even Gabriel Leon, some strong followers of course, but they. With all the respect I have for them, they did not reach the level of kak. He really incarnated with, how to say, uh,

Flavio Zanetti: 00:46:39

big brands

Dan Assisi: 00:46:42

big.

Charles Kempf: 00:46:44

He, he was programmed to do this work, huh? Trained, uh, into several past lives and so on. Uh, so, so it, it's really for this, you see, we, we talk about lan, we talk about the, we talk about whoever Butk is really making the, uh, how to say is unanimously recognized, uh, within the spiritist, uh, movement. Huh. And it is of not by chance. It's really because he had the skills, these faculties, he set up this methodology, huh? Uh, when you, when you look, uh, some professors of, uh, epi epidemiology or scientific methodology, you, you, they are really amazed because a lot of the principles he used in 1857 for the Spirit book got only conceptualized later on, even in the 20th century. And he was clearly anticipating 50 years ahead, more than 50 years ahead. Uh, some principles which got, let's say, consolidated into the science of the science only much later. And, and of course it was himself, his qualities, but also was the help of the speeds which were assisting him. So it was really something amazing who happened at that time. And again, I repeat. Uh, science today, none of the basic principle of disabilities has been demonstrated as being false by the science after 160 years. So it's really amazing to see how something like this can happen.

Dan Assisi: 00:48:25

A hundred percent. It is, and that's a great point. I often say that the Spirit's book and that kind of thinking was, um, was a idea ahead of its time, but not before its time. Right? Yes. Because it came at the right time of our history where we were being mindful when being thoughtful about scientific method and, you know, replica replicability and how to do something that's very coherent and that's just a fascinating and incredible piece, this whole legacy of Card Connect that goes well beyond just the books. Um, you know, here's, we have a guy who's incredibly well prepared as an educator, uh, well-rounded scientist in general. Uh, who, you know, had a fantastic support from his wife, who's no slouch either, right? I, Emil was also quite brilliant herself, who was able to gather a number of folks to look credibly and, uh, skeptically into this phenomena that were taking place and, and come up with this body of knowledge that we now call Spiritism. That started with the Spirits book officially in 1857. That, and that's really incredible and we could talk about this for, for many hours, but I know that we're reaching to the end of the time, but I wanted to call us out here and say, you know, as we begin to wrap up, what is one thing that really stick or stuck with you about Keck and this whole beginning of Spiritism that you think is still very impactful in today's uh, world? And we can kind of do a whip around and have everybody kind of chime in here, but does anybody wanna lean in and just kind of share with us what they think is, uh, it's really north worthy and as a good takeaway for us to kind of keep in mind?

Flavio Zanetti: 00:50:05

I, I,

Suzana Simoes: 00:50:06

Susanna, go ahead, please. Oh, I'll go. Um, I just, uh, I think I just want to say that, like you said, then we could probably spend like eight hours here live if we wanna really go deep into our life. That is so incredibly rich. Um, I think I just kept thinking, you know, whoever is listening to us, will that person get that taste of how special, how unique this man, uh, is and his mission. And so what I'm always, um, considering in my mind is every time we bring a new idea or concepts, there are challenging. We face hard opposition. It's part of the process of evolution. Uh, new ideas will face a lot of, um, struggles. Um, he had enemies. Uh, we see some of the dialogues in books like what is Spiritualism? Very in intelligent people questioning the teachings. So he was a brilliant mind and a man who really, um, dealt with a number of obstacles, who devoted. He was prepared up to 50 years old to, uh, you know, develop all the resources to undertake the task. But nevertheless, he was told, and indeed was a huge task, a huge task that called for a huge man, not only in terms of intelligence, but in terms of relating and dealing. With kindness and with humbleness, not only with his fans, but especially with his enemies, giving them the respect. And he was well known for knowing how to dialogue and how to navigate this world, which is, you know, with all the, the, the disparities, with all the contradictions, with all the, the questioning, which is something that we today, uh, struggle so much to do. So I think that he was, uh, pretty huge, has my incredible admiration, especially when it comes to that someone who is starting, launching something that really revolutionize the world with, with the understanding of life, what life is, and all the implications that comes with the. Revelation that came to the spirits.

Flavio Zanetti: 00:53:06

Yeah. And, and I thank you, Susan. This is, this is great. This is brilliant. Uh, um, what I'd like to add is, while it's really important for us to continue studying Kak, there's, there's, spend a whole life studying the works of this, you know, amazing individual. But I wanna say that while Spiritism started with Keck, it did not end with Keck. Like, this is an important, you know, point. He gave us all the tools, all the resources to kick off this new thing that we call Body of Knowledge. This new philosophy, this new idea, this transformational, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, concept that changes our lives. And luckily, other authors, other folks are coming at the tail end to contribute to corroborate what he said. And to add additional ideas, right? I think it's important for us to, to mention that obviously, right? We're gonna stick with the foundation, which card brought us, but as a house is being built, right, the foundation, then you can build the house on top of it, right? How tall, how why you build the house will be up to us, right? To go after, to study, to get knowledge and really gain, gain more through other authors as well.

Dan Assisi: 00:54:22

And before we, we go to Charles for some final comments here too. Uh, and we're really grateful that you're with us here today. Charles, thanks for being here. I just wanna highlight that as well. I think that what's really amazing about Card's World Work and his legacy is that Spiritism is, is really not about the content. It's really about the method, right? Because this method of inquiry, this method, method of asking questions, of looking to the outside world and try to make sense of things and learning for ourselves in checking different sources, it's something that keeps on giving. If we were to lose all those books that Keck published today, but retain his mindset, we could get all of them back. Right. And I think that's the one powerful message that sticks with me, that Spiritism does to us, and that has done to my life, is ask these questions, try and see if there is this universal control. If this, if, if this truth shows up in different places, and then bring it back to us and say, how, how will I behave differently now that I know that I'm in immortal spirit? How does that change my behavior? How does that change my day to day? So I absolutely love the example that card gave us, and I'm still very much in awe on his ability to communicate some topics that are so complex, so clearly and so simply, which is typically, uh, you know, um, the mark of a great educator. So that's really just really nice of him. Um, so thanks for sharing, uh, things with us, Charles. So tell us, Charles, what is, what is one big takeaway? Um, after all your research, uh, about Kak dot e, it still strikes you as something incredible.

Charles Kempf: 00:56:00

Yeah, so I thank you for the statements fully share. Uh, what, uh, Susan, uh, uh, flak and Yuan just said that it's, it's, uh, true. Uh, what could I add? I think when, when, when we look a little bit what Kakar has done, uh, he, he came in, uh, at the right time, huh? When, uh, after the French Revolution where there was some liberty of expression, also some, a little bit more independence towards the official religions, huh. Uh, and, and also some other, uh, scientists like Dekar, like, uh, August with a positivism de developing the methodology of science itself and, and what Dekar do in all that ambient. He was seeing turning tables. Huh. Uh, very simple phenomenon. And he saw immediately that there is something, uh, extremely, uh, deep behind. And he, he had the lucidity, uh, because science and religion were fighting once against the other. Uh huh. What did still, huh? Still, still, still. Yeah. He took the science and took, okay. What is good in science methodology? Huh? The, uh, the, the, the investigation, experiments and so on. But then he moved a, a lot of, uh, things which in science are not so good, like materialism or some. Sometime a little bit. Pride change resistance as a susani wealth, uh, uh, thought he also took, looked at the religions. Okay, what is good in the religion At the beginning of the gospel, he explains this very clearly, is the, the moral teachings love one another. Do unto the other, what you would like to do on, onto you. All these, uh, moral, uh, laws, which are universal that you can find in any religion in the world. But then here moved also. What is not so good in the religion, like, uh, thek, my religion is the best. And, uh, out of my religion, there is no salvation. All these things, all the rituals, all these things shift away. And by taking the best. Of the two, which were enemies, he sought something out of the box and made something new, a new concept, which is called spiritism. And that is why until today, even the scientists are studying, uh, this type of subject, they have difficulties in to categorize spiritism, even within the spiritist movement. Those people are telling you Spiritism means a science. No, it's a religion. No, it's a philosophy. Uh, it's not a religion in the sense of the dogma and so on. It's not a science in the sense of, uh, pride, uh, materialism. It, it is also not a philosophy in the, for the type of philosophy which are negative or even influenced also by materialism. It is simply something new out of this box. It is really a disruption. Uh, this modern, uh, wording that we are using today that he brought 150 years ago, and that is still not yet today fully understood. Neither my science nor by disabilities themselves sometimes did not understand that, and that was really something brilliant. And I like what you said. Dan Spiritism came, uh, before its time, but at his its time. And, uh, the, the, the evidence of it, what is it? When you look in France, the Spirits book still sell. You have 10 different, uh, publishers and it's selling several thousands, uh, of exemplar. Uh, still today. I go sometimes and put, you know, we have this book box in the street. I don't know if you have the same in us. I put the spirit book there. I come the next day. It's not there anymore. Huh? It they put again, again, again, again. And, uh, still 150 years ago. You have so many people looking and we put it also for free in, in, in electronically, uh, reading, trying to understand, uh, this, uh, revolutionary concept that he brought. And that is not for, uh, really the thing which I think, uh, we still need a little bit of time to understand this fully.

Suzana Simoes: 01:00:55

Absolutely. Uh, Charles, before we close and I pass it back to Dan, I just wanna, um, acknowledge the work that you were doing. I know with other folks, uh, the research work, uh, on Card's Life, it's much appreciated. So our gratitude, because it's, uh, It's, it's precious and it's priceless. So I just wanna make sure that I say that to you and just wonder if people want to get in touch with you or they wanna know a little bit more about that research or what's going on currently. What is the best way to find

Charles Kempf: 01:01:30

out? Oh, uh, I, I, I think one, one good, uh, is a website I just mentioned, huh? Mm-hmm. Project Eck at the University of Jewish Defora in French, the French Pist Movement. Uh, we also organized since more than 20 years now, what we called, uh, LOP and Encyclopedia. So we put all the information we have available, uh, into this encyclopedia. Uh, of course there are some books. So, uh, we wrote a new biography in French. Uh, we contributed a lot to this, uh, new and, and, and quite some extensive biographies, uh, in, uh, in Portuguese. Uh, because how to say, to bring, uh, the, the more complete information, because now with the digitalization of the archives, with all these thousands of original documents, we found, uh, we, we are really, uh, also changing, uh, it's, uh, how to say a, a quantum jump into the information and the primary sources that we got from Kak. And of course, all this is done completely. Uh, I mean, the rights of this book is going only to the institution. Huh? Which is, uh, Uh, cultural Center, ARD Valley Monte. I don't know if someone of you knew Eduardo Valley Monte. I was so happy to, to, to meet him in Paris in 2004 when, uh, we had the Congress and this idea of making these researchers, putting it available for free to, to everyone who is interested in is, uh, what we are still continuing and seeking. And, uh, I thank you, uh, Susan for, uh, your appreciation and a lot of people getting also the same feedback, uh, admiring the work we are doing, uh, in a total dis interested way.

Dan Assisi: 01:03:27

That's awesome. Yep. So thank you, Charles. Thank you Flavia. Thank you Susanna, for being here. It's great to be in this journey with you for our six year together. Um, I just want to thank everybody who is watching or listening as well to Spiritist Conversations, which is a production of the Spiritist Institute. If you enjoy today's conversation, please share that with a friend. He helps us get the word out and, uh, folks, find some great content that we think, uh, it's being produced here and to revisit past episodes. You can go to YouTube, you can go to Facebook. You can also subscribe at your favorite podcast platform and not miss one single episode. We are thrilled to be here with you today, and we look forward to seeing you in our next conversation in a couple of weeks where we're gonna talk about healing in Spiritist passes. So thanks for being here, and have a great night everyone. Thank you everyone. Thank you so

Charles Kempf: 01:04:22

much. Thank

Flavio Zanetti: 01:04:23

you everyone. Take care. Thanks.